[ He can't be a ho at work, he's behaved for months on El Nysa-- it was nice, that break. (Also strange, because it reminded him of the person he was before Starfleet, in a way. And he's not that person anymore, but without Starfleet, who is he?)
Anyway. ]
Mmm. [ Reflective. Jim wonders how to word it. ] I've seen enough disasters to know how useless it is to do anything but push forward. And.. if I wasn't positive, what should I be doing?
[ That doesn't sound rhetorical; it sounds like he's curious about Ianto's opinion. ] If I said, instead, that while it's great everyone is researching, the manner of reporting is scattered and disorganized, it's nearly impossible to wade through, and everyone's habits of running off on their own without communicating with the rest of the refugees is a crippling detriment to actual momentum, how would you react? Would you react well, or would you resent that some career officer is being a dick to civilians?
[Ianto's seen his fair share of disasters by now. Some day he might even talk to Jim about it. About Torchwood. He's been here long enough that he knows breaking the secrecy agreement is pretty much a null point these days. He wonders if it would shed him in any different a light in the other man's eyes. It's not as though his job was any different, really. It's not as though he technically lied. He does work for the government. Civil service. He just happens to defend the earth against alien threat. He's an archivist anyway. A researcher. He's not cut out for these major sorts of events. That's what his Captain is supposed to be there for. To help guide them through. But Jack's been missing for months even before the Storm hit Earth. Ianto isn't holding his breath now.]
Well, Captain. [He puts just enough emphasis into the word to let him know he means it amicably as much as anything.] I would say that that's a fair assessment of our movements. It's not as though we've got any great leader to turn to in the end. Especially when the Natha just up and disappear on us. We're effectively on our own out here, guessing in the dark. We're not a team. The only thing that unites us is our circumstances, and no one is obligated to work with anyone else, even now.
[Now isn't that uplifting? He's always been the cheery sort.] But we're trying. And if those of us who can might set an example... It's what I made an attempt to do, at any rate. Get people thinking. Talking to each other about it. I don't know.
You're not bothered, because you work in defense, [ Jim observes. ('Defense' is the world Ianto had used, when Jim asked for clarification. He remembers quite clearly.) ] But plenty of people don't like it, don't want to be 'managed', for one reason or another. Other military types don't always take well to it either.
[ Again, for one reason or another. Mostly, though, it's that once someone has been in command, they have a hard time taking anyone else's orders - or even suggestions. Jim's been there, but Jim's also been hauled up enough times that he respects compromise. Which is perhaps why he's up here working with teenage terrorists and bounty hunters and actually making headway as a team. ]
You said it, though: you're trying. We can't ask for much else. Those of us who give a shit have to be motivational forces able to find and put pieces together.
[Oh that's right, he had said that, hadn't he. Good foresight, past Ianto.
He has to smile slightly at the mention of 'other military types' not taking management very well, even if Jim can't see it over the phone. He knows exactly how that goes, all things considered. Don't tell John that you outrank him, Jim. He's pretty sure that John assumes otherwise, it would seem that Lt. Commander Sheppard is used to being the highest ranking officer around.]
No, they don't, do they.
[He lets out a breath.] I can't say that I picture myself as much of a motivational force, but I definitely give a shit, and I'm definitely trying. I just wish that I was finding better answers than I am.
[ The struggle of no one understanding navy ranks is always made worse by the fact that Starfleet uses them in a unique way. What's Jim gonna do, draw a flowchart? Nah, it doesn't matter. There's no Starfleet here, just jobs to get done. ]
What kind of work do you think you'd be the most effective at? Here, I mean.
[There's a little pause wherein Ianto makes himself comfortable where he's sitting. (Which may be Jim's own kitchen table -- he did say that he could stay there if he was in the area, after all!)]
Do you mean against the dragon, or in general? Because honestly, it's something I've struggled with here since the day I've arrived. So if you're offering advice, I'd honestly welcome it. I...
What I did, what I used to do. I was an archivist. A researcher. General support. And before that, a personal assistant. I worked my way up from there, and I was. Good at it. All of it. The thought of coming from there to, I don't know. Having to become a bartender or a barista? It just feels so. Meaningless. But I can't keep on doing nothing and expecting for John to support me either, that's hardly fair.
But as far as this specific scenario is concerned... I'm no soldier, Jim. I don't have a gun and I don't have the training to fight anything on this sort of a scale. But I can't just sit back and do nothing either.
[ Beepboop, on this end. Jim's listening, but he's working, too. There's really no time to waste these days, so hopefully it won't be begrudged. ]
There's a lot of room for that here, [ he says. ] And I mean in a capacity that's like ... working to uncover the various mysteries piled onto us purely by existing, without the Natha giving transparent answers, without knowing the real history of his planet. Not just a 'barista' capacity.
[ So that's, what, two percent less of a lost feeling, maybe? On this alien world. ]
[Ianto's not wasting time on his end but his eyes need a rest or they might fall out of his head, peering at all those obscure manuscripts on the subject for hours on end. Some jobs just need breaks out of necessity.]
Mmm. I do enjoy a good puzzle. And I wouldn't honestly take a word they said for the truth, not without evidence to back it up. Not that I'm not grateful for their help but. You know how it is.
[He huffs out a laugh.]
It's too bad that being skeptical isn't enough to pay the rent though. [It's what did the job back home, after all.]
I'm still not sure how much is cultural differences and how much is willful obfuscation, when it comes to their behavior. [ Dryly. Jim's still seen too much weird shit to take anything here at face value. And then-- ]
'Rent' is an awful concept, [ he complains. ] I can't believe so many civilizations and Earth were all just fine with forcing people to pay for housing and food and medical care for thousands of years. No wonder everyone here is miserable.
My thoughts exactly. I don't know which is more frustrating, truth be told. I'm sorry if that's culturally insensitive, or whatever. They never really gave us training on "what to do if a seemingly all-powerful alien lifeform was holding out on you", yeah?
[Actually, Torchwood's general rule of thumb was "If it's Alien, it's Ours" and "Shoot First, Ask Questions Later", but that was before they'd gotten themselves killed that way, so. Torchwood Cardiff is at least trying not to do that now that Jack is in charge. (Trying.)]
Listen, you don't need to tell me twice. If I could live in a world like yours, I would jump at the chance, you know. [He grew up in a council estate, for crying out loud.] Not having to worry about money would make my life a lot simpler. I had quite a bit saved away before the Storm and it might as well have been for nothing, starting over again here. Starting over again with everything.
Outmaneuver them, [ he mutters. Like he's done that before
or something. ANYway, ]
Ugh, it just gets on my nerves like nothing else. 'A world like mine' still isn't perfect, trust me, and we still have things like alcohol ration chips that everybody gambles and trades and owes, but this whole--
[ Frustrated pause. There's probably a hand gesture. ]
I hate it. It's abusive. How can people focus on bettering civilization if they're worried about eating - I know, I'm just. Preaching and bitching, at this stage. Sorry.
No, no, it's alright. We're all allowed to let out some steam every now and again. Trust me, of all people I know how important it is to get some complaining in here and there. After all. I am Welsh. [And a comedian too, fancy that.]
[Okay wait though, hold the phone, Ianto just has to mull that one over for a moment.] I'm sorry though, I just. I have to ask. Alcohol ration chips...? That's. First off, you ration your alcohol?
Can you think of a better way to do things in a post-scarcity economy where access to food and water is free? [ Verbal shrug. ] It's not strict. Some substances are just limited to prevent abuse.
[ And nobody but a handful of pitiable degenerates smoke. ]
It's just. An odd concept. If everything else has free access, then. I don't know, it just feels. Restricting. Like who has that right, yeah? To decide my allotment for me. I've got an unlimited supply of water but the minute I want to get trashed, there's a problem.
I'm sorry, I don't mean to criticize. It just feels a little like. Big Brother is watching. No wonder people use them to gamble.
[Maybe the future isn't all that it sounds after all.]
That's an interesting leap to make, [ Jim says mildly.
Fascinating, to borrow a word. Did old Earth humans really do things like refuse state-sanctioned medical care over similarly imaginary reasons? Who prioritizes getting drunk over housing, food, education, healthcare..? Culture is fuckin wild, man.
(It's so easy to get trashed just on your own credits. Jim knows way, way too well. He also knows well how easy it is to slip the system and become an alcoholic and beat the shit out of your stepkids or nephews with regularity.) ]
[Wow Jim, he's not prioritizing getting drunk over anything! But you've not explained this very well so as far as he knows you're getting what, one glass a chip? Especially when there's no reason to ration it anymore other than what "for the greater good"? Who controls where people live if there's no rent for that matter? And how did they get in such a position to have such power over other people's lives? He just has so many questions.]
Listen, I. Mentioned that I worked in defense, yeah? I know first hand how corrupt different branches of the government can become when they've got that much deciding power, that's all I mean. Maybe people are different in the future, but. I wouldn't think we've changed that much.
[ tbf he did say 'it's not perfect' and 'it's not strict'-- mostly, though, these are blind-spot differences in human culture that they're both missing, given the enormous shift in Jim's world. ]
Well. [ Hmmm. ]
The thing is, humanity was nearly extinct. Nuclear holocaust, the post-atomic horror. You talk about things that are a given about human nature, but humans had to start over. Our understanding of fundamental elements here are probably pretty different.
[Whoa those are... Some pretty bleak things to look forward to, if the future is the same in all realities. The idea of having to rebuild from there is daunting, not to mention...]
I. Shit, Jim. I'm sorry, I didn't mean to. You know, imply anything. Or turn the conversation this way, for that matter.
I'm just trying to understand. Learn. I'm a researcher, I guess you could say digging is just something that I do.
[Does this small attempt at humor lighten the mood at all? Or redeem him for any judgments that might have been made during this conversation at all? God, he hopes so.]
It's all right. I just don't see humanity the same way most people here do, I've learned.
[ Which is weird, and isolating. Jim's unique in that he's seen the worst his humanity has to offer, in the form of Starfleet corruption, but it was so shocking because it's so unlikely. He could have easily become bitter about it but he decided-- fuck you, he's going to work harder, drag more people into the light and out of that.
(Still, it's funny what gets a rise out of people. Booze, of all things.) ]
We're capable of a lot in general. Good and bad in equal measure. But if there's something I've learned myself it's that it's never that black and white.
Take this situation we're up against, for instance. The easiest way to see that the least amount of people are hurt is to take it down as fast as possible. But the dragon is technically an innocent in this as well, for all the damage it will be causing. That's why I had to make the post that I did, to try and help people understand. I'm not saying that it's wrong to want to save it. I'm just saying that it's not realistic. We don't have the time or the resources to find the answers, the cure, the ritual, or however else we might be able to stop it.
Believe me, I've looked.
[And boy is he tired. There's only so much individuals can do before running themselves into the ground here though, Jim. They're basically a guerrilla force here, up against what seems more and more like impossible odds.]
Are you working with the people who were posting about fighting it? [ Because that seems sensible. ] My impression is there's a real effort to hustle, down there, between talking to the city leaders, working on battle stagings, and sending people into Khalo again to see if there's anything we've been missing. But if no one's doing anything, that needs to change immediately.
i'm sorry for my speed this week was Something. and for ianto being such a downer...
I was researching to see if there was a way to stop it without fighting.
[Because that seemed more sensible, to him, than blindly facing it head-on.]
In Khalo and Wyver both, yeah. I wanted to understand what we were dealing with. What they were doing to it, if there might be a way to... I don't know, negate what they've done.
[Does he sound frustrated? He definitely is. He's spent a lot of time coming up with dead ends.]
There's just not that much written, and what there is... It just doesn't sound good. I'm not really sure where to go from here, Jim. I keep hoping for, I don't know. A breakthrough to happen or something. I think the best we can hope for is that someone figures out how to put it down, at this point.
Then you have to work towards what you think is the best solution, or support people who're doing just that. You can't hope for a breakthrough. You have to make one happen.
[ That's a general 'you', but it's fine if Ianto takes it as a personal 'you' as well. Still counts. They all have an individual responsibility to attack this problem head-on. Jim's where he's the most effective, so is everyone else, looks like. ]
Hey, I gotta go - I need to get a better look at this diagnostic.
( ooc; it's ok! i think this should get wrapped anyway since at this stage they're talking about something we've known the outcome of for a good while tho lol )
![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
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Anyway. ]
Mmm. [ Reflective. Jim wonders how to word it. ] I've seen enough disasters to know how useless it is to do anything but push forward. And.. if I wasn't positive, what should I be doing?
[ That doesn't sound rhetorical; it sounds like he's curious about Ianto's opinion. ] If I said, instead, that while it's great everyone is researching, the manner of reporting is scattered and disorganized, it's nearly impossible to wade through, and everyone's habits of running off on their own without communicating with the rest of the refugees is a crippling detriment to actual momentum, how would you react? Would you react well, or would you resent that some career officer is being a dick to civilians?
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Well, Captain. [He puts just enough emphasis into the word to let him know he means it amicably as much as anything.] I would say that that's a fair assessment of our movements. It's not as though we've got any great leader to turn to in the end. Especially when the Natha just up and disappear on us. We're effectively on our own out here, guessing in the dark. We're not a team. The only thing that unites us is our circumstances, and no one is obligated to work with anyone else, even now.
[Now isn't that uplifting? He's always been the cheery sort.] But we're trying. And if those of us who can might set an example... It's what I made an attempt to do, at any rate. Get people thinking. Talking to each other about it. I don't know.
[He really misses his team.]
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[ Again, for one reason or another. Mostly, though, it's that once someone has been in command, they have a hard time taking anyone else's orders - or even suggestions. Jim's been there, but Jim's also been hauled up enough times that he respects compromise. Which is perhaps why he's up here working with teenage terrorists and bounty hunters and actually making headway as a team. ]
You said it, though: you're trying. We can't ask for much else. Those of us who give a shit have to be motivational forces able to find and put pieces together.
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He has to smile slightly at the mention of 'other military types' not taking management very well, even if Jim can't see it over the phone. He knows exactly how that goes, all things considered. Don't tell John that you outrank him, Jim. He's pretty sure that John assumes otherwise, it would seem that Lt. Commander Sheppard is used to being the highest ranking officer around.]
No, they don't, do they.
[He lets out a breath.] I can't say that I picture myself as much of a motivational force, but I definitely give a shit, and I'm definitely trying. I just wish that I was finding better answers than I am.
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What kind of work do you think you'd be the most effective at? Here, I mean.
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Do you mean against the dragon, or in general? Because honestly, it's something I've struggled with here since the day I've arrived. So if you're offering advice, I'd honestly welcome it. I...
What I did, what I used to do. I was an archivist. A researcher. General support. And before that, a personal assistant. I worked my way up from there, and I was. Good at it. All of it. The thought of coming from there to, I don't know. Having to become a bartender or a barista? It just feels so. Meaningless. But I can't keep on doing nothing and expecting for John to support me either, that's hardly fair.
But as far as this specific scenario is concerned... I'm no soldier, Jim. I don't have a gun and I don't have the training to fight anything on this sort of a scale. But I can't just sit back and do nothing either.
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There's a lot of room for that here, [ he says. ] And I mean in a capacity that's like ... working to uncover the various mysteries piled onto us purely by existing, without the Natha giving transparent answers, without knowing the real history of his planet. Not just a 'barista' capacity.
[ So that's, what, two percent less of a lost feeling, maybe? On this alien world. ]
Right now is just a shitshow for everyone.
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Mmm. I do enjoy a good puzzle. And I wouldn't honestly take a word they said for the truth, not without evidence to back it up. Not that I'm not grateful for their help but. You know how it is.
[He huffs out a laugh.]
It's too bad that being skeptical isn't enough to pay the rent though. [It's what did the job back home, after all.]
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'Rent' is an awful concept, [ he complains. ] I can't believe so many civilizations and Earth were all just fine with forcing people to pay for housing and food and medical care for thousands of years. No wonder everyone here is miserable.
[ >:( ]
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[Actually, Torchwood's general rule of thumb was "If it's Alien, it's Ours" and "Shoot First, Ask Questions Later", but that was before they'd gotten themselves killed that way, so. Torchwood Cardiff is at least trying not to do that now that Jack is in charge. (Trying.)]
Listen, you don't need to tell me twice. If I could live in a world like yours, I would jump at the chance, you know. [He grew up in a council estate, for crying out loud.] Not having to worry about money would make my life a lot simpler. I had quite a bit saved away before the Storm and it might as well have been for nothing, starting over again here. Starting over again with everything.
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or something. ANYway, ]
Ugh, it just gets on my nerves like nothing else. 'A world like mine' still isn't perfect, trust me, and we still have things like alcohol ration chips that everybody gambles and trades and owes, but this whole--
[ Frustrated pause. There's probably a hand gesture. ]
I hate it. It's abusive. How can people focus on bettering civilization if they're worried about eating - I know, I'm just. Preaching and bitching, at this stage. Sorry.
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[Okay wait though, hold the phone, Ianto just has to mull that one over for a moment.] I'm sorry though, I just. I have to ask. Alcohol ration chips...? That's. First off, you ration your alcohol?
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[ And nobody but a handful of pitiable degenerates smoke. ]
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I'm sorry, I don't mean to criticize. It just feels a little like. Big Brother is watching. No wonder people use them to gamble.
[Maybe the future isn't all that it sounds after all.]
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Fascinating, to borrow a word. Did old Earth humans really do things like refuse state-sanctioned medical care over similarly imaginary reasons? Who prioritizes getting drunk over housing, food, education, healthcare..? Culture is fuckin wild, man.
(It's so easy to get trashed just on your own credits. Jim knows way, way too well. He also knows well how easy it is to slip the system and become an alcoholic and beat the shit out of your stepkids or nephews with regularity.) ]
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Listen, I. Mentioned that I worked in defense, yeah? I know first hand how corrupt different branches of the government can become when they've got that much deciding power, that's all I mean. Maybe people are different in the future, but. I wouldn't think we've changed that much.
[Just look at what became of Torchwood One...]
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Well. [ Hmmm. ]
The thing is, humanity was nearly extinct. Nuclear holocaust, the post-atomic horror. You talk about things that are a given about human nature, but humans had to start over. Our understanding of fundamental elements here are probably pretty different.
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I. Shit, Jim. I'm sorry, I didn't mean to. You know, imply anything. Or turn the conversation this way, for that matter.
I'm just trying to understand. Learn. I'm a researcher, I guess you could say digging is just something that I do.
[Does this small attempt at humor lighten the mood at all? Or redeem him for any judgments that might have been made during this conversation at all? God, he hopes so.]
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[ Which is weird, and isolating. Jim's unique in that he's seen the worst his humanity has to offer, in the form of Starfleet corruption, but it was so shocking because it's so unlikely. He could have easily become bitter about it but he decided-- fuck you, he's going to work harder, drag more people into the light and out of that.
(Still, it's funny what gets a rise out of people. Booze, of all things.) ]
It's a shame. We're capable of a lot of good.
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Take this situation we're up against, for instance. The easiest way to see that the least amount of people are hurt is to take it down as fast as possible. But the dragon is technically an innocent in this as well, for all the damage it will be causing. That's why I had to make the post that I did, to try and help people understand. I'm not saying that it's wrong to want to save it. I'm just saying that it's not realistic. We don't have the time or the resources to find the answers, the cure, the ritual, or however else we might be able to stop it.
Believe me, I've looked.
[And boy is he tired. There's only so much individuals can do before running themselves into the ground here though, Jim. They're basically a guerrilla force here, up against what seems more and more like impossible odds.]
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i'm sorry for my speed this week was Something. and for ianto being such a downer...
[Because that seemed more sensible, to him, than blindly facing it head-on.]
In Khalo and Wyver both, yeah. I wanted to understand what we were dealing with. What they were doing to it, if there might be a way to... I don't know, negate what they've done.
[Does he sound frustrated? He definitely is. He's spent a lot of time coming up with dead ends.]
There's just not that much written, and what there is... It just doesn't sound good. I'm not really sure where to go from here, Jim. I keep hoping for, I don't know. A breakthrough to happen or something. I think the best we can hope for is that someone figures out how to put it down, at this point.
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[ That's a general 'you', but it's fine if Ianto takes it as a personal 'you' as well. Still counts. They all have an individual responsibility to attack this problem head-on. Jim's where he's the most effective, so is everyone else, looks like. ]
Hey, I gotta go - I need to get a better look at this diagnostic.
( ooc; it's ok! i think this should get wrapped anyway since at this stage they're talking about something we've known the outcome of for a good while tho lol )